Episode 3 - Fart Testing

And she's like, if you shave your beard, I'm going to stop shaving my legs. And I said, that is not the same thing.

I think Shattest are morally wrong. And I I think men should not do them and women should not do them. And here's why.

I occasionally let a small little auditory fart out on the first date. And if they were like, oh, okay, fine. You know, people fart. That was a good sign.

That's disgusting. That's Are you serious?

It's the handsome hour.

If you love tuning in to hear me talk shit, I'm Wes. I'm Cody. Sony's here too. We're tech founders in in New York, and that's a really cool thing to be.

Welcome to the handsome hour. Welcome back. Get handsomer and handsomer. Yes. That's my new idea for the We

have to do a certain number of episodes before we get on video, because this is a looks maxing show, but it's a looks maxing show for us. We have to believe ourselves handsome.

We're really calling our shot by Yeah. Calling ourselves the handsome hour before we go to video. Yeah. It's gonna be the most anticipated face reveal of all time.

Well, shaved this time, because I thought that we were gonna have cameras and then And what day

did you shave? Because coming sitting from over here, it doesn't look like it.

Well, shaved my neck. And that's important for guys. You gotta and I I actually that that is a I don't mean that as a joke. If if you have stubble, it it took me probably until I was like 28 years old to realize that you need to even if you have stubble, you need to still shave a part of your skin or else it looks like shit, like below the neckline.

When people say neckbeards, do they mean that the beard covers the neck, or do they mean the beard is growing on the neck? I've never

heard that before. Traditionally it means that the thickest part of the beard is the neck, Because there's certain hair growth patterns where if you can't grow a beard well, you probably could still grow, like, really long, like, neck and chin hair.

I can't grow a beard to save my life. I've tried it for two months, I just get patchy stuff down in the goatee area, and then on the sides, nothing. Like, there are

That's tough.

One square inch areas where zero hairs will grow after months. There would be no way. Short of glue and a little trimmed hairs from someone else, I would never have what you guys have. It could be a decade. I wouldn't have it.

I never understand why. Like, someone would be like, I really wish I could have

a beard. It's like, why? I don't particularly wish it, but

Yeah. It's a very divisive subject among women. I feel like almost every woman I've ever met is either strongly pro beard or strongly anti beard. I don't know I've ever met a girl who was just ambivalent about the beard.

Well, dated a girl who I didn't have a beard when I met her, and then a few months into the relationship, I grew a beard. And then I'm like, I hate this. I hate the way it feels. I'm going to shave my beard. And she's like, no, I love your beard.

If you shave your beard, I'm going to stop shaving my legs. And I said, that is not the same thing. That is not the same I because I a beard is a preference. If you like, I like guys with beards, that's a

preference,

right? Shaving your legs is the minimum thing you must do to have a man.

Right. That's one of those things where, like, you know, we pretend that human females don't actually grow hair on their legs, because the thought of having to imagine all humans as at at what we actually are, which is like apes standing on two legs, is like gross. Right? It's like it's the same thing as like, you know, we pretend girls don't fart. It's like all these things.

This is in the same category. Like for you, for my brain to register you as a human female, you need to do these things. I'm sorry.

Yeah. I've dated multiple women who didn't shave their legs, but they were very often blonde and didn't have a lot of leg hair, it was this stuff, downy stuff. But I've also seen women, particularly after they pull off a cast or something like that, and once their hair is greater than my hair, that is a line that my brain stem cannot cross. Even if I willed my frontal cortex to say, Don't worry about it, Stoney. It's just a thick, matted leg hair.

You can push through this. No, brain stem would be like, nope, this is breaking what I'm supposed to be attracted to.

I was making out with a girl one time, and she wouldn't take her pants, she was wearing like capri pants, she wouldn't take them off. So I like, kind of like, grabbed the bottom of her leg under the pant, and there was so much hair. There was I thought she was wearing wool socks, like and I I was just like, oh, okay. Then now I get it. And she was very into me because that's what your people are gonna listen to that, and they're gonna say, oh, let's no.

She just didn't want to take her pants off. No. It was she wasn't prepared to be in that situation and knew it. Classic. Yeah.

The thing I was talking about before was I went on a date with a girl in New York and when when you have a start up, you know, because that's the first question a girl will ask you on a date. She says, you know, what do do for work? I'm like, oh, well, have the start up. She goes, well, what what do you do? And then you explain what the business says.

She's like, oh, yeah, that's not gonna work. And she worked at JPMorgan, so she understood everything, of course. But the thing that I had been saying was that, like, that's not what I need on a on a first date. It's like, first of all, like, you you don't have to like the idea. I don't need like, I want you you should have thoughts, you know?

I I don't want you to like the idea necessarily. I don't need you to like it. But at least, like, have it first of all, either pretend to think it's a great idea so we can talk about anything else, like, other than work, right? Because once you start talking about the business, that's all the date will be about. I've been through that many times.

But Snowden, you had suggested saying, just be like, Oh, well, what about this? You know, raise your objections in a kind way.

Or even tell me yet. Tell me tell me how that would work, because I know little I'm almost speechless at how she managed to misstep so quickly, and if you realize that the date's gonna go nowhere, at least enjoy it and leave after the first drink.

Yeah. This is like a whole category, I feel like. It's like a Kobayashi Maru that these girls push you through, where they they go on the date to fight. It's like it's intentional, because then it's your fault. As soon as the date the energy of the date goes south, they blame you.

Yeah. It's now as your if you were they start an argument, and then you respond, and now you're the asshole.

Is a Kobayashi? That's the guy who eats hot dogs?

No. It's the unwinnable test in Star Trek.

The guy

who eats The Kobay he's is that the name of the hot dog champion? Yes.

Oh, yes.

Okay. Alright.

This yes. Exactly. They put you in a situation where you have to eat infinite hot dogs, and it's untenable.

Right? For for the listeners, no. It is it is a Star Trek thing.

Yeah. So it's the unbeatable test in Star Trek.

And how you respond to it is the ultimate Right. Test.

Right. A Kobayashi Maru is when you go on a date with a girl and you take her to Nathan's Hot Dogs, and then it's it's it's you've heard of shit testing, well, you do is you order 12 hot dogs, and and you and you eat them all.

And then you throw up.

Yeah. And if she and it's like, look, baby, if you

can't handle me You speed eat them, like the guy who dunks the thing in

the water. He puts them in water, you say. You're like, look, I've been on four dates this week, and I'm trying to beat my record, so

Are you not entertained?

You bring her a you bring her a stopwatch.

Are you not impressed? Listen, some guys can sing, some guys are rich. Yeah. I can eat a lot of hot dogs.

I can stomach a lot

of bullshit. This is a metaphor for what I'm gonna do in this relationship.

Yep. Not perhaps the best metaphor. I'm gonna swallow a lot of wieners in this relationship. Don't know if that's I what I wanna lead

went on a date, it was just like that. So I, this was in LA, there's a lot of these girls in LA, as I'm guessing there are in New York, although I don't despite having lived in New York now for six months, I have not dated in New York. I go on this date, there's the I went on a lot of these dates, but the one that sticks out of my mind most substantially is, yeah, same thing, she intentionally steers the conversation, she goes, well, did you vote? And it's like immediately, I'm like, roll my eyes, like, oh, I see where this is going. And I'm like trying to cautiously, like, well, you know, I have like pretty nuanced politics, and like, you know, I didn't really it's like, no, it's not necessarily because I did it, and I'm like trying to be reasonable, this reasonable person.

Now she's on the offensive. She like smells blood in the water, right? And she's like escalating, she's like working like, it was so funny to watch because you could see it happening real time. And then she's like coming out with like, you're like, well, did you do this because here's what I think like, yeah, I have a pretty nuanced nuance, you know, like she's like working herself up responding to nothing. It's like she's playing against, she's shadow boxing, she's playing against a brick wall, who is get like, I'm not, you know what I mean?

I'm not escalating. I'm completely flat. Yeah. And she's like every it's so funny to watch, like she's just this perpetual motion machine. And the date literally ended, it culminated with she stormed out, she stood up, she's like, I'm done.

And I stopped her, and I was like, well, you're gonna pay for your I'm not gonna be stuck with your So she couldn't and that got that really flipped it. So I was like, you're gonna let's split. You know, don't leave without paying your side of the bill. So she and I flagged away, and she was so hot, and she ended up actually paying for the whole thing, I think out of spite. I didn't even realize she did it, she just went over the waiter, like, and just paid, and like, that was not my intention, but I think it was it's funny, because like, that's her version of like, I'll show you.

And then she stormed out, like, that was the end of the day, it was pretty incredible.

Nice.

That's the only time I've ever had somebody storm out on a date, but

I've never had someone storm out on a date. I've had some really bad dates. I've never had someone storm out.

I had someone storm out over what I thought was a fairly innocent joke. It was a first date, and we were only on, I think, the first drink, And she talked about how she was flying back and forth between India. She was American, but she was flying back and forth between India and Germany. And I think one was for work and one was for love. And I think I made a joke like, hey, I hope it was, you know, Germany for love, and I kind of made a slight penis sized joke, and that inflamed her so much she just left right away.

And I was like, that was not the reaction I was expecting.

Do you think that it's because you what is it? Which it's because you were the type of man who would joke about such a thing, or it's because she's fucking Indian guys?

I do believe that it was India for work and Germany for love. I guess it was that to even make that joke. And honestly, you know, a genitalia joke, perhaps it suggests a slight lack of class, but I I think 99% of the guys on the planet are gonna be making a penis joke every once in a while.

Yeah. Well, if you're going to Germany for love, you gotta like a specific kind of guy. I've never heard a woman be like, oh, the romance of German men. Women will go to Spain or Italy or something, or France, and they have a fantasy about meeting one of these guys, but no one's like, oh, yeah.

Well, clearly that was her taste. I mean, wants a guy who, like, you know, we show up to Hook every day, we clock in, we take the paycheck, we go home, that is life.

So there's these great series of books called A Xenophobe's Guide To, and they're in fact very positive books. It's almost like a dummy's guide to dating this culture. And I read the Xenophobes Guide to Germans, and when it came to relationships, it just said that they are very matter of fact. They will tell you exactly what they think.

Humor is inefficient.

And they will even go so far as to kindly help you by rating your sexual performance, and with, you know, completely with a straight face. Now, I don't know if this is true or not, but that was what the book suggested. So think the Germans are known for being a little bit matter of fact.

I've spent a bit of time in Germany. Every conversation is about something. There's no concept of small talk or like, hey, how are you? It's like, our conversation begins when there is a problem to be solved, and once we've reached a plan to resolve the problem, the conversation is now over, and we will we will begin working silently or separate, you know, go our separate ways.

Yeah. They also really like insurance. Yeah. They like to minimize risk on a level that I think would be hard for a typical tech founder to imagine. And I think that comes out through the number of startups they have, but that's another conversation.

Yeah. On the topic of like giving performance evaluations after a date, I'm thinking of another bad date I had where I had been in a relationship for a long time. This was the first date I went on. So I was like it was like a knock in the dust off kind of date, you know? And I was like very anxious and very asking lots of questions, but she wasn't talking.

And then, you know, the date turned into me asking her questions because she would answer the question and not really ask me a question, so there was really nowhere for me to insert myself. And then at the end of day, she's like, yeah, this felt like a job interview, this was horrible. You don't go on very many dates, do you? I'm like, well, not recently. And she's like, yeah, you need to, like, do something other than ask questions.

And I I did appreciate the feedback, I suppose. Like, I I knew that, but it it was also like, you know, you also have to talk.

It's a shame that they can't take the Tea app, which I think maybe 10% to 30% of it is going in the right direction of we wish to improve our dating experience and find the right match. But the manifestation is, let's just only focus on the negatives of any given guy, but also to not even allow the guy to see his own feedback or profile is indicating that there is no positive growth. I mean, the Tea app presumes no growth.

What is the Tea app?

Yeah, don't know that app.

So the Tea app, and I think it comes from Spill the Tea, is a how to put it? Almost imagine a Facebook where you don't have profiles. You create profiles as a woman about the guys you've been on dates with Oh. And then list all of the problems with them. So it's just shitposting on a profile which you as a guy don't even know you might have.

It's kind of terrifying.

Well, it it the person most qualified to judge me and recommend me to other women is a woman that I went on a date with and didn't want to see again. It's it's like, you know, crowdsource feedback from people you don't like. I'm sure there are some nice girls who, you know, you go on a date and it just doesn't work and they go on the tea app and they're like, oh, he's a great guy. We're we didn't have chemistry, but I recommend him. I think that any app like that is going to converge on I am mad as a woman, and here's this is I'm going to go talk shit on this guy.

It's actually kind of a

good thing, yeah, because it seems like the kind of woman who's likely to use that app is precisely the kind of woman I wouldn't want to go on a date with. So if I get eliminated from her pool because it's like, great.

Yeah.

Selected away.

Is the T app, I think, grew out of those Facebook groups, the are we dating the same guy? It's the the same people, right? Because I knew the girl

Oh, like literally, like the same

I think it literally is the same people. If it's not the same people, then it's the It's something else growth. That's Yeah, they at least were inspired by it. And I knew the girl kind of who started all those groups, and she like had to move. Like someone threw a brick through her window and I I guess I don't wanna like I don't I don't even know her name, but like we were in contact at one point years ago for Keeper Stuff and those groups are terrible.

Have you ever searched for yourself in one of those groups? No. Do know what I'm talking about?

I I I have heard about it, but I have very little exposure.

It's just like the it's it's basically the Tee app. I used to be at all of them for every city, just when I was doing matchmaking to, you know, search for people. And and the the dating world is small, we say this all the time, but I I found myself in one of them, first of all. I found people I know in several of them.

It seems like it would be hard to mean, they identify people, like, by name and image? Yeah.

Yeah. Take screenshots of your Tinder profile or whatever it is, you know, whatever app is, and they'll say, oh, watch out for so and so, right? He did x y z. And in, like, in New York, I don't think it matters that much. But even in, like, Philly, like, Philly is you think of Philly as a big city, but, like, if you're dating as a 20, it feels very, very small.

It was surreal to go on that group and see a post about myself and see discourse among more than one woman I've more than one woman I've been on a date with about me

Were in the they communicating with each other or

just Yes. Wow. So there was I I could tell the story.

I would find that fascinating not just to be talked about, to be discussed about back and forth. So you're listening to a conversation of two or more people describing what you're like, and they're thinking this is anonymous.

Yeah. So I went on a date with one girl, and she, I guess, really liked me, and I wasn't into her, and we didn't see each other again. And I went on a date with this other girl who was the worst, just the absolute worst. It just wasn't a good date. And she wore like a smock.

She like a, you know, like a small I don't know how else to it was a garment, but it looked like it was tied in rope around the neck and then just like no figure, you know. Like, she probably looked fine, but just not something you wear to a date. Not that that was important. That wasn't the reason the date was bad, but it was a bad date. And then the check came and she offered to split the check, and I said, no, I'll pay for it, thinking about it.

And then I went for a hug at the end of the date and we had an awkward hug. And then I was walking away and I thought to myself, I should have let her split the check cause she was terrible. She she was, you know, no conversation, I'm very charming, I'm so easy to get along with, and she just wasn't like participating in the date at all. And so I texted her and I said, hey, I thought about it, do you mind Venmoing me for your half of the check? Which which I don't under because every time I tell the story, I get you guys are, like, laughing.

I don't I don't see why that is inherently any different from splitting the check-in the first place.

It just is, but I'm not sure I can articulate it.

If yeah. I mean, it it feels like a very, like, Larry David thing, but, like, I

don't Yeah.

Like, I was just I walked away from it, and I started you know, when I was there, I wanted to be chivalrous, but as I was walking away, was like, wait a minute. Why wouldn't I split the check? Why am I paying for this? Like, as a point of pride, I had to so anyway, she took a screenshot of my photo from the profile, and she took a screenshot of that conversation. Well, I said something after that.

I was because after that, she said, that is one of the rudest things anyone has ever said to me. That and I'm like, well, you wasted two hours of my time today, and you need to learn how to dress. You know? I I I hit back. That's my policy is and I don't you don't you shouldn't do that.

This is years ago, by the way. I wouldn't do that now. But she posted that conversation. She said, stay away from Wes on this group. And this other girl who I had gone on the date with previously comments on it, she's like, oh, that's so heartbreaking.

I went on a date with this guy and he seemed really awesome, and I didn't get that feeling from him at all. So then there was this other dialogue where it was like, you know, there's all these other girls are coming in, she's they're like, he he he paid for half the he paid for the check because he thought you were going to sleep with him. And then when you didn't, he and and I I I try I I went in there. I got banned from the group. I had, like, birder account that was in the group, but I went in there and I'm like, actually, I know him personally.

And let me just say that I'm not going to put anyone's business out there, but there's a lot more to this story that's not being told. And and this is this is it's really bad that you can come in here and tell one half of the story. And it was just really the post get taken down. The post did get taken down, but The entire thing or just your comment? The entire thing.

I'm actually surprised that those I haven't maybe they have, and I just haven't been tracking it, but, like, I'm surprised that those groups, there haven't been, like, lawsuits or something over that, because that just seems such a you could just have such libelous spirals.

But I had to set the record straight, and they don't want that.

Like, if it's a mutual, she can tell herself the story that she's really rejecting you.

Right. Well, yeah, I mean, who told women that you need to like, that you should be asking all these political questions? I feel like there's a piece of advice floating around out there that women are reading and seeing, that where they think that somehow it's to their benefit to be going on dates and, like, I don't know. Word they use is shit testing, but I don't even think that's what it is a lot of the time. It's like purity testing or like vetting.

Yeah, agree. It's it's kind of not a shit test, because the politics ones in particular are that's why I called it Kobayashi Maru. Like, can win a shit test, You can't win the politics ones.

I started putting Christian conservative on my on my dating profile, and it was great because I'm not those things, but it's like if you're not okay with that, you don't want to go on a date with me. And then I still went on a date with a girl who is like, you know it's always like, so what do you think about abortion? I'm like, oh, I think it's great. I think it's how many of you had? War is better.

No. It's like, I don't like, why who cares? Like, you know, who cares? Yeah. Right?

I support Israel. But she was Jewish. So if if she's Jewish, I always go to Israel. Right. You know?

Right. And she doesn't like Israel. She didn't like Israel.

Yeah. I feel like I mean, this goes to the homath point where it's this thing where I know I talk like this fairly frequently, but, like, I do feel like there are some kind of nefarious forces that are intentionally trying to use politics as a wedge between men and women. I mean, you look at all the graphs, the, you know, like the Pew Research and stuff, and this is super clear, right? Like, the gap between young men and women is just is just becoming massive.

South Korea does seem to be the most extreme. And I can't think this is not not hand in hand, the birth rate seems to be the lowest.

Yeah.

So is that I don't know which one came first, but it seems like the politics division came first.

I think they're certainly, like, correlated at

any Well, women have all of this misplaced empathy, and if you're a woman of a certain age, your body's telling you to care for a child, but you don't have a child, so you get a dog, in probably the best case. Or you now, you know, every every immigrant and every every poor person is now your child, and it's your personal responsibility to take care of them. And the the I don't like, most women don't have the part of their mind that says, like, politics is about resource management and you can't help everyone. Like, they seem to sometimes live in this world of total abundance in their mind.

I'm gonna agree with you completely, but I wanna reframe it a tiny bit and say that if you imagine a tribal society of 150 people, and that number is pretty consistent throughout history, as you can often get up to 150 people in a society and have everyone know each other, and you try to imagine a society where there's two evolutionary splits. One is that women do not provide resources to the most needy, and that women do provide resources to the most needy. And in that 150 person village, think evolutionary, you're going to do much better if women consistently distribute resources towards the needy, which is predominantly going to be children with a few old people. And so it completely makes sense in my mind that women evolved to help distribute resources to the needy. And that was an incredibly positive thing at 150 people evolutionary tribal society.

And then for the same reason that sugar, which we might have gotten from berries or honey, is immediately stored in the fat cells, great, we don't get a lot of sugar in berries evolutionary. But you have a 7.1, 64 ounce Big Gulp, and that goes into your fat cells, and you get diabetes and die. So what worked evolutionarily when we had limited berries and when we had 100 limited people, 150, is a unmitigated disaster when that 150 turns into 300,000,000. So I agree with you completely, and I I think that that brain impulse is to identify the needy and provide resources. That is how I would mentally describe it, which is exactly what you're saying.

You're talking about politics in abundance. But that's kind of the most simplification and the origin of it.

Right. Well, in a society of 150 people, it's like, in a way, those 150 people are your kin. So and also, you can conceivably take care of all of them. But our and I think it even is worse, I I think the part of the reason you see more of this polarization between the men and women in cities especially, is that like, if you go to where I'm from, you know, I'm from a town in New Hampshire, it's a very idyllic place, but because it's like people are very nice and you go it's like everyone cares about what they're doing and they'll stop and have a conversation with you if you've never met them before. It's a very nice place.

But it's a small town too. So it's like the I think that in a place like that, you have a feeling of like your locus of control is relatively small. But like if you live in New York, it's a dehumanizing experience and it's also like everyone just comes here. So you're like, you know, if you feel like you have to take care of everyone, it's like an inconceivable number of people to take care of. But really when we're talking about, you know, I think people think locally, but when you're talking about national politics, it's like the well, okay, can we take care of everyone in the world?

Can everyone in the world who's poor come to The United States and can we take care of them? No. Well, obviously, we can't do that. And I've I've had this conversation with women where I just like you kind of just like make them take what they believe to the logical extreme, and then it's like, well, now there are 3,000,000,000 people in The United States and you are a heavy minority.

I just don't understand why you're so mean, Wes.

Yeah. Well, I mean, a good woman will that's I I you know, women don't I don't don't get I don't get hung up on, like, women's politics because it's like what they want is to be taken care of.

Well, there's also a dividing line, a stark dividing line between women who have children and women who don't have children. And women who have children want resources to flow to their children, understandably. Women who don't have children, where should the resources flow? Anywhere.

Yeah. And the worst part, is that describes most women, but then there's a subset of women, of course, who are maybe higher in dark triad, who will then use empathy as a cover story to pursue social status, etcetera, etcetera. And that can create some really fucked dynamics, because if the culture is set up in such a way that it does reward displays of empathy, maybe even more so than empathy per se, right? And now you get into this arms race of, well, who can appear more empathetic? Well, I'm even more left wing.

Well, I think we should let in everybody, no matter what. You know, and and now you're in this, you know, race to the bottom.

Babylon Bee had this great, I'm probably slaughtering the title, but it was something like virtue turns out to be a lot harder than virtue signaling.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. The way I always like to say is like, it's like, women are incapable. This is Women are incapable of perceiving the objective world. They can only perceive the aura of status around things.

Men are evolved to interact with object level reality, and also the social world. Women are not evolved to interact with object level reality, only the social world. So they can't perceive the I really believe this. They fundamentally cannot perceive in some deep, deep way like the objective facts that underlie politics. So they they can't think of it as like a spreadsheet, like no, no, the numbers have to sum.

It's like, no, it's just the social game. It's just if you believe this, you're mean. There's no other reason that you could possibly believe this.

So for the sake of argument, let's presume for the next few minutes that's completely true. If that's completely true, should you even ever bother talking about politics on a date? Or should you just say, hey. I don't really worry about that too much. If we end up married, I'll be taking care of you, so you don't have to worry about that.

Now what is I'm I'm going to the other extreme, but where is the right line? Let let's imagine everything you said is correct, then how much should politics play a factor on a date at all? Yeah.

This is a actually, we can express our opinions, but I think there's actually pretty good research that, like, makes us actually kind of have pretty clear answer. In fact, I was talking with a prominent, well known evolutionary psychologist about exactly this topic the other day, and he was very cut and dry about it. He's like, you should not talk about politics. The research shows that women will almost always change their politics to mirror the politics of their partner after some amount of time, and so it doesn't matter what your politics are, or if there's a gap. If you can just get over that in the early days, it'll work itself out.

Let me expand on that. So the stereotype, and I think this is a statistically accurate stereotype, is two things. One, men are more conservative than women. And two, I do think men are more hesitant to get into relationships than women. And so what women often do is they will date a guy who may or may not be ready to settle down and kind of hope that he turns into the guy that settles down.

I don't think this is a great strategy, but maybe it's the best strategy at the same time as not being great. Who knows? But if women are taking that strategy, I don't see what's wrong with us taking the the counterparty strategy of I'm going to date a woman who's more liberal than might be a good fit for me, presuming that she will settle down to politics closer to what I believe.

Yeah, no, I mean, think this is the kind of thing where, like, depending on your, you know, if politics are really imp it might take a while, right? Like, there's always a cop, it's like, it might take a while for her to change her position, it might be a painful process, there might be some arguments along the way. So it's like, you know.

Can I propose a scientific experiment? Yeah. I'm going to propose an unscientific experiment. Cody, you and I get a profile, and we should decide now. Are we liberal or are we moderate?

And go on a few apps and report back, and actually experiment with this.

That could be a really interesting, just like as a general format for the show.

And, you know, I thank Brian Johnson for eating blueberries and weird things and then doing blood work. We can go on dates and practice saying, Yeah, I don't really worry about that. I just know that if we end up together, we'll figure it out and see what happens when you have a way around the politics trap. What was that, Kobayashi? Kobayashi Maru.

Maybe it's not it is solvable.

Yeah. Well, Okay. So yeah, to be fair, what you're describing, that is the classic way that you win a shit test, that you beat a shit test, right? So I don't think we have to define shit test, right? Everybody knows what a shit

test is.

It's a well,

it's what I mean, it's like okay. Let me it's a quest it's when a woman asks you a question not to get the answer, but to see how you react to the question.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a question. She just puts you she does some behavior.

Okay.

Yes, and the point of it is to, yeah, to trigger some response and see how you respond.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I might say something a little bit outlandish, and if she flips out, I'm like, great, we've just done a little test to identify you shouldn't be dating someone who says outlandish things.

Okay, I find shit tests a little morally reprehensible, but you know, right.

Well, Cody lives in a world where everybody has clear beliefs and where someone can be distilled to their deeply held views. And I live in a world where I don't really believe anything, you know? Like, I have things that I think and I have like you know, I do have things that I believe, but most of my beliefs are just like, you know, my best approximation. And I think that most people, like, especially when it comes to politics I I am a scholar of political science. But I think that especially when it comes to politics, it's like you're do you're really trying to fit in and you and most people just have no idea, right?

If you if you question or challenge any of their beliefs, there's actually nothing there. So

I I yes, I believe that is the case.

Right. So to be like

I wish we lived a world where people went on their Nietzschean quest of self discovery and then spent their life trying to embody their values. I know, though, that that's not the world that we live in. Yeah, well, I wish But any deviation from that is bad.

Yeah, I have a shit test definition or question for you. So in my 20s, I occasionally let a small little auditory fart out on the first date. And if they were like, oh, Okay, fine, people fart, that was a good sign. And if they flipped out, then this was a great way to flesh out people who maybe I wasn't a good flagellant Would fit that be a shit test, considering just how close farting is to shit?

It's a fart test. That's disgusting. Are you being serious? Is Yeah. The dumbest shit I've ever heard.

No. Well, you think about it. You can meditate on this for a But week come back next I think a little you want to do something to flesh out how demanding, how overly precise, how inflexible, how rigid someone is, and just a little

Me too.

Followed by a I'm so sorry. If you're listening to this, don't do that. And if you're if you're not watching this because there's no video cameras recording, West's face is is horrified. I'm not horrified. The things I could have said to horrify you, I'm glad that this is the one.

So no.

Listen to me. A woman, she they don't know you. Right? First of all first of all, I think that I think that This is a

fascinating strategy.

Have a preference for someone who doesn't rip ass on the first date. You should have that preference. It's I'm not saying it should be a

a That's why I said a small, quietly, but audible fart. I did not say rip ass.

What did do? Well, what are you eating, like, one bean? Like, how are you we're not going to go into the No. Modulation of No. No.

No. No. But there is a point here, which is that like there's this principle of association, right, which if you let's say you go to a date and you smell bad, right? It's not that women have a preference against guys who smell bad, which they do, right? But if you are producing foul odors or any sort of foul experience sensory on a date,

Sure, but

You're triggering the disgust response, is going to be associated with you as a person. I'm saying that if the person in the booth next to you smells bad and she is smelling a bad scent, then she will be less attracted.

Okay, is It's Steelman Stoney here. His point though is that you should be able Like, if somebody is emotionally mature, they should be able to weather the momentary, perhaps, don't want say loss of attraction, but a momentary insult against the obviously fake veneer that is generally people construct on a date, intended to create superficial attraction, right? It's like, we all know that's not really what humans are. Humans are messy, disgusting creatures. I love that this has been positioned as the male shit test.

Like, women shit test men, and Stoney's way of shit testing women is doing this little fart thing.

I also add one other thing I'm trying to avoid? I have a good buddy who shall remain nameless who has never farted in front of his wife, and it's been twenty five plus years, and he will leave the bed and go into the bathroom to let one rip. I think the real thing I'm worried about is this is the Harry Met Sally thing, where he's like, I never drive them to the airport because someday I'm not going to want to drive them to the airport, and I don't want to have that conversation. Now, my buddy, if he starts farting now after twenty five years, his wife's going to be thinking, What is going on? He's having an affair, the love has ended, I don't know what So he has to maintain

Yeah, that's insane.

Leaving for farting. So you've almost a better question is, what is the moment you decide to fart in front of them? And I'm doing the Harry Met Sally thing. I never want to have that moment when they realize, oh, this is where the relationship at is that he's farting in front of me. I hit that right away, and I check their rigidity and response.

Okay, I got a take. What you're doing is you're shit testing women. It's your version of a shit test. Is being picked up? I feel like it's

Oh my goodness, every time. Yeah. More so for me because if I do anything

It travels. Alright, I'm just gonna not put my hand over there. Okay. Where was I? Oh yeah, the shit test.

Okay. Here here here's my take. I get your logic, and I think that's the exact same logic that women use when they shit test men. Now, to be clear, women don't shit test men consciously, it's unconscious. But if you force them to consciously justify shit testing men, that's what they would say.

Here's my take. While I totally understand where you're coming from, and I think your version of it is very innocent, all things considered, I think Shittites are morally wrong, and I think men should not do them, and women should not do them, and here's why. Because while I get the logic that it is ostensibly doing something positive for the relationship. The problem is that you are now a person who shit tests potentially your future partner. And that is a, like, it's from a virtue ethics perspective, not to get too philosophical.

It's like, you might have it might have served you. You might have more information about them, but you had to get that information in a cloak and dagger way, and it's not worth the moral trade.

I have never heard of anyone referring to my farting as cloak and dagger, but I thank you for that highest of high compliments.

That's what we do here at Handsome Hour.

So to completely disagree with you, I think we would all say that there's nothing wrong with putting a little bit of your worst foot forward on a date to make sure that you're not just focusing on optics. And the reality is, I am a farter. Now, everybody's a farter. Maybe I've got more farting capability. I've had people say that to me.

So why not expose who I truly am to them on the first date?

Well, we're all gonna admit our dark pasts at some point in this podcast, so no judgment. But no, and to be clear, on the spectrum of shit tests, even if you were doing that, so I would not consider that a shit test if it was a genuine fart, although if you're forcing it get my point.

You're making the decision to do something that you know It's socially

not the unusualness that's wrong, in my opinion. It's that it's potentially, I'm not saying, is theoretically potentially inauthentic. That's the problem. So if it's truly authentic, if you're maximizing I advocate for maximizing authenticity. If you're maximizing authenticity, then that is morally good, and that's righteous, and you should do that on a date.

You should not artificially create a situation that wouldn't have otherwise been there as a simulation of some kind of future state or something. That's not that's that's where it gets

weird Can in we have like a concrete example of a shit test that because now all I'm thinking of, I'm anchored on inauthentic farting Yeah. And it's a little I got What is I've farted even know what a shit test is.

Yeah. What is it? So politics one is a good example, although I think that's kind of a weird special case. But there are lots of ones where like, from like the pickup artist world, like one, a really subtle one that they'll talk about a lot is like, she'll ask you to hold her bag, like hold her hold my purse, or make a request, I think it's a little bit unreasonable that you should say no to, and see if you

Holding the purse?

Yeah, where it's like

Just set it on the table.

Well, you're not that's the okay.

That's how you're supposed to react to it, right? What are you supposed

to No, do with my point is me just okay. Yeah, you're missing the point. The point is just or anything that she says, the point is that it's something that the point is that she's trying to stir up your emotions. The way to pass the test is to not get flustered. Is to So the point is that she's trying to put you in a difficult situation.

So she's being bratty, or she's being making unreasonable requests, or she's doing something that that if you are high in her autism, or if you are easily flustered, or if you are insecure, will trigger you in some way. You'll get defensive, or you'll get Right? Your emotional state will become elevated. And so the way to pass is to just not respond, it's to de escalate, it's to go, yeah, whatever. And just it just water off a duck's back.

You're an unshakable rock in a storm. Because the point is that she's trying to see that the steel man of the shit test is that she's trying to measure when he is actually in the future subjected to challenging situations. Am I gonna be able to rely on him? Is he gonna be a rock for me? Can you know, is he gonna be I'm Women know, women are high in neuroticism.

She goes, I'm emotional. I'm an emotional wreck. I can't trust my emotions. I need to be able to trust his emotions.

Okay. The way you described it, I think that's almost a positive thing.

You I'm still manning it. I'm giving you the most positive possible.

Your advice that you give everyone is to put your worst foot forward. Yeah. You know? So why should know, like, if a girl is self aware, and she's like, yeah, I'm a bitch sometimes, and she wants to pull that out on the first date to see how you deal with it, is it not that?

But authentically, it should be a this might sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I think it's a meaningful difference. You shouldn't artificially create a situation for that. So if she is authentically if a situation authentically arises, then that's okay. But you shouldn't manufacture a situation, because that's manipulation, that's the definition of manipulation. And now you are the kind of person who is, could I think of it from the other perspective.

How could I trust a woman who tries to manipulate my emotions, and who tries to manufacture situations that are gonna be like, life is hard enough. I don't need you making it harder on me. I couldn't trust that woman. Right? If the situation is naturally hard, fine, fair enough.

But I think that's the hard line, that's where the foot has to be put down.

Okay. So it's not the behavior, it's contrived exhibition of the behavior?

It's the intent behind the desire to contrive. So judging there's nothing wrong with making a judgment about somebody, if you're judging in the right way, according to the right criteria. Like, has to make judgments, it's about the criteria, right? My criteria is, well, I only like, you know, I only like baby killers, well, that's bad. If I only like moral people, well, that's good.

So it's not judgment per se, it's how you're judging, right? So if she's using shit criteria, and her ruler is fucked, then that's fucked.

I see it a little bit differently in that, first of all, I think the entire date is contrived. You're picking the location, even how you communicate, how you text, whether you show up on time, all these things are used to assess the person. You think it's bad to assess whether someone shows up on time or not?

No, again, the assessing is not bad. Contrivance is bad. And manipulation is bad. So the goal of both parties should always be, as much as possible, to minimize contrivance and minimize manipulation. Because don't you want to be in a relationship with somebody who always strives to minimize contrivance and minimize manipulation?

That's an ideal partner.

Yes, and also, I I don't think that there's any escape from the rituality of social life. Like, what is the purpose of a Japanese tea ceremony is to, like, evaluate someone's conscientiousness and how they can, you know

Yes.

Follow these minute and pointless Mhmm. Courtesies.

Right.

And so, like, that's built into a first date, though, too. Mhmm. Right? Like, it's And the point

is to get past that. Right? The point is like, you don't want to have like, the situation you described earlier, Stoney, that's a nightmare. You don't want to have to be in a twenty five year relationship where you're still faking shit. Like, with your partner, you still can't be authentic with this per like, that's hell.

I would rather die

Yeah, that is

than be so trapped in a fake relationship for twenty five years. Mean, that's obviously a minute point, but you get the idea. So like, yeah, so the goal you're exactly right, I totally agree with you, Wes, you cannot escape, or at least from the get go, you can't escape the contrivance of social ritual. Totally true. But that is exactly the barrier against which you are pushing, and the goal of the relationship is to eventually transcend it.

And the test is, is this a person who I can transcend that with?

So I'm gonna try to split the difference here. And when you either show up on time or the Japanese tea ceremony example, everybody knows the rules and there are no gotchas. Whereas what I think Cody is objecting to is a gotcha.

It's a really good point.

And he might not even mind that subconsciously we bring the gotchas, but what he's saying is, I want to date someone who doesn't live their life by bringing gotchas into a situation because gotchas are not going to lead to peace and harmony. So you're almost doing your own shit test to them by evaluating whether or not they're going to be bringing gotchas to you, which isn't a bad thing. Because if you are optimizing on peace and harmony, then you want someone who's a little bit go along, get along. So I don't think that's requirement on your part.

To be clear, though, everything I'm saying is totally internally coherent, because it's technically not a shit test according to my definition. It's not manufacturing the situation. And judgment, again, is totally fine, so I'm fine with them judging me and me judging them according to an internally coherent morally good framework. I think that does hold, because actually, to be clear, I don't want go along, get along. One of the tenets of my moral philosophy is anything is permissible, I don't mean this quite literally, the way I'm about to say it is almost metaphorical, it's kind of a joke, But anything is permissible if you say it out loud as you're doing it.

This is my anime villain theory of morality. The point being, the real sin is like hypocrisy, the real sin is the is the is the cloak and dagger. It's like, if you disagree with something, if you if you find something I'm doing morally unctuous, if you find whatever whatever, I want peace and harmony, but the way to peace and harmony, the way to peace and harmony is authenticity and honesty. And if that requires some stormy season, that means So point So to go take it back to your thing earlier, if we show up on the date, and the girl goes and brings up politics, and she wants to fight about politics, to me, that is actually totally fine. I have no problem with that.

I'll argue about politics all day long. That to me is totally fine. The problem is the hypocrisy when she makes starts the fight and then blames you, and Right? If she's happy to go on the argument, on the journey of the conflict, and you arrive at the end of the date and you go, listen, we disagree, and I think that's, you know, we can't get past it, I think that means that we're incompatible, but I respect you for having the conversation with me, and us going, that's totally fine, that is completely righteous and good. It's the hypocrisy, it's the fake manipulative bullshit of trying to put you in an unwinnable situation, and then blaming you for it.

So that's less of a dating issue, and more of a person who wants to be right and wants to attack their theoretical opponents, and that happens to be coming out during a date, but I can't imagine it's gonna be that much different for her friends and family.

I think it's, you know, 10:10

Well, don't think politics is a shit test in most cases. Because you in I think that if if a woman is asking you about politics on a first date, like, you can succeed in not becoming emotionally aroused by it and still fail. Yeah, that's why I said that's

kind of a separate special Yeah. But, yeah.

I totally I mean, can certainly, I think for a lot of women, can power through it, but I don't I don't know. In my experience, I I feel like the substance of the the answer does matter.

I agree. Sometimes they're a traditional shit test, sometimes they're their own thing, and we shouldn't necessarily conflate those.

I think you're also against I think you're also against a woman laying traps for you. I think what Yeah. I think what you've experienced is you've experienced politics as a trap, and this comes back to whether it's a gotcha or a trap, but it doesn't seem like it's good faith. And they're not even saying

upfront That's good phrase. Good faith.

Hey, you know what? This is really important to me, so I just want to say that if you're on this side of the aisle and I'm on the other side of the aisle, this probably isn't going to work. Fair enough. Let's not talk about this. Let's enjoy the next thirty minutes and let's move on.

But there isn't a level of either self awareness and transparency in order to come across as a mature, functioning individual. Mean, imagine conducting a job interview that way. Even if you succeed in fleshing something out from the prospective applicant, you've just told them some really questionable things about your own ethics.

Yeah. Couldn't agree more. That's exactly right. I think you hit it on the head.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't think that any of that bothers me as much as it does you guys. I think that

One thing that's kind of, I find somewhat adorable about US, is you're very okay with the way things are. You're very like you're not idealistic. It's just like, well, women are women and that's fine.

I have enough things to worry about, you know? If I start worrying about fixing things that can never be, you know? It's like I struggle that what do they do with Alcoholics Anonymous? The Lord, give me the strength to change the things I can control and accept the things that I can't. It's like, well, I can't really control anything.

So Well, that that can be a criterion that you select on.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, don't think it's wrong to be opposed because I I think I do agree, like, think that if if a woman is on if I if she's contriving circumstances, I do find that distasteful. I feel like maybe I'm just, like, naive and I haven't experienced that much of that, but the reason I haven't experienced much of it is because I haven't, like, noticed it when it's happening, you know? I think a lot of

guys don't notice when they're being shit tested.

Yeah, like, I think that I do deal with shit tests probably well, because I don't become excited about things, least of all on a first date. Like, you know, it's just like be my I mean, my MO is to like seem like you're above it all a little bit, and like you're too you're too concerned about the things that matter to you to like get worked up over things that don't matter, like politics or whatever. Well, if a girl asks me about politics on a date, it's I don't I I don't wanna talk about that on a date. And I I don't think that, like I don't know if I've ever, like, met a girl who had, like, really sincere political beliefs. Like, I think that it's always, like, they think they believe something strongly, and then you dig a little bit deeper into it, and then they don't.

Or they, you you date them for long enough and they love you so much and they trust you and they think that you're wise and smart and that you've thought about these things deeply and they just sort of acquiesce to whatever you believe because they didn't hold that strong of convictions in the first place. It was all social posturing or or, you know,

social Social programming might be a better way to put it.

Yeah. I think in best case scenario, it's posturing. Worst case scenario, it's programming. But I I've just never had an issue with that. I don't know if that's good, like, universal advice for everyone to take because, like, I have a certain persona that maybe makes that easier for me.

But, yeah, every girl I've ever dated, like, starts off as, like, a quasi liberal and then, you know, sometimes come out the other side being, like, more based than I am.

Yeah. I mean, I think the truth is, like, it just doesn't matter. It's like if politics is important to you, select on it. If it's not, don't. Like, you know what mean?

It's like it's like what you should be looking for is what you should be trying to do is just, as hard as you can, opt out of all of the games that are culturally normative on dates, within the dating world and dating culture these days. It's like, that's really the trap, is being led to believe that any of this matters in some way.

So I'll talk about that. So when I've had situations like that where politics comes up and it could be a dividing issue, having spent ten years in England, have opinions on English politics, and I'll talk about that. And it's interesting to see the reaction, because they're almost their brains are almost processing, Okay, he's talking about politics, but I don't have any strong

That's actually

feelings

funny. On it's completely neutral. It's not triggering one way or the another, and it's another way of putting it, saying, I have opinions, but I'm not in either camp. It's not the I don't talk about politics. I don't care about politics.

Yeah. I really care about this issue. You know? Like, how many of the women I date in New York City really care about, you know, Euro policy? But close to zero, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really funny situation where, yeah, it's politics, but it doesn't have all the baggage, all of the signaling baggage, and all the stuff like it does here.

Yeah, whether you're pro or against Brexit in England, big deal. Or does anyone care in New York City whether you're for or against Brexit, whether you're for or against the euro currency, or, you know, it's immaterial.

Yeah, I could see that just making somebody's brain just glitch out.

Yeah, and then they're like I'm supposed to

be getting passionate right now. What's happening?

Next. What's happening?

And then great, we've just now moved on from the politics discussion without Have you ever dated

a girl who talked funny? Was that has that ever been a problem? Like like if that because I I think that that I have very few, you know, outside of a lot of things, like appearance or how you act, like turn offs. But like I don't think I could ever date someone with like a real speech impediment. Depends on what kind.

Yeah. Like, what where's the line?

Broadicism would be hard. What is it? That's the one where r's become w's, like Wah. Yeah. Mowage.

Mowage. We all getting mowied.

No, I couldn't do that one.

Cody, will you married me?

Like a stutter? I could probably be okay with like a stutter.

Okay.

I don't think that would bother me too much.

Bit of a stutter.

It would be annoying, but I could like set it aside for the right girl.

You can get used to it.

Yeah. You'd hope she wouldn't stutter with you. I don't know if that's a thing, but people usually stutter more when they're nervous. You would hope that that she would slip into now my knowledge of stutter largely comes from watching The King's Speech, but I don't think people stutter when they sing, and I don't think anyone's born with a stutter.

I think it's often the case that they can sing without a stutter, and I think it probably gets worse when they're nervous. But I think people with it's like a neurological thing, right? So I think there are people with stutters that are just you know, they have it regardless. Even they're totally comfortable and calm, they still

They don't hear it, I think, sometimes. It's like saying, It's oh, you

like a mismatch. It's like the way it's commonly colloquially explained is that, like, there's a lag between the brain regions that are generating the thought and generating the speech, and so it's like there's some kind of desynchronization that's happening, where they know what they're trying to say, they just they can't generate the vocal the mouth patterns to create it fast enough.

Have you ever done Toastmasters or one of those courses about like, how to be well spoken? No.

But I I coached rowing for years, and you're standing on a small boat rocking back and forth, holding a speakerphone yelling at people twice your age, and you do that for hundreds of hours, and any fear of public speaking is just eradicated.

Yeah. Because I think I'm trying to I'm trying to loop this back into some sort of advice, and the advice that I think is most applicable is that charisma is one of these like a lot of skills you can develop are very domain specific, but I think that charisma in a sense is not domain specific. It's like if you can learn to be well spoken in one environment, you can transfer that to most environments, including dating. And to what you said, Stoney, most of charisma is just confidence. You need something to say, like if you don't know what to say, it's hard to be charismatic.

But it's better to be someone who's confident and doesn't know what to say than someone who knows what to say and isn't confident. So if you have to choose one, like the that confidence is like, it's a very buildable skill and the way you get it is by I think it's by embarrassing yourself a few times or or being in situations like for for me, it could have been a number of things, I ran for president when I was in college and I did it in a very dramatic way and I think that looking back on it, it was extremely embarrassing, but also what I learned was that that embarrassment didn't matter or affect anything. But it's like once you pratfall a few times in front of people and you get up and you realize it didn't matter, like now you will do it less because you know if you do fail or if you do put your foot in your mouth, you can like you just keep moving.

Right? Knowing that you will survive something is very empowering, and I think the challenge is that when we start off in this world as teenagers, social rejection is so painful, and we're not sure if we're gonna survive. And getting out there in the world with that confidence that you're gonna survive, you almost need a series of worse and worse experiences to happen to you. Any time you're like, well, survived the last one, this isn't that much harder. I don't know if you wanna engender those those experiences, but I certainly say to my daughter, you know, this builds character.

And I say it tongue in cheek, but it's true.

Yeah. Yeah. I say that about I say it to my girlfriend about everything. Anytime anything bad happens, I'm like, well, builds character. And it's it's, you know, it is a dismissal, but it also is true.

So I think the one thing we can all agree on is if you're on a date with me in the future and you have listened to this podcast and I fart, sadly, we all know why. So I I think this is a giant mark against my name. I don't if you guys have anything finally to add to that.

If anything, it's a it's a giant, like, you have future proofed yourself. Now, for for now on forever, if you ever fart, you can always retroactively claim that this was the reason you

You've now farted in front of every woman. This is what you've done. This is sort of your

You don't think they're going to feel special anymore,

do In a metaphorical sense, now when you

fart That is just a callback.

And if they listen to the podcast and still go on a date with me expecting a fart, then

That's I no longer have to fart

right. Because they've, in a sense, gone through the shit test.

It's like when they meet like an insult comic, and the comic is nice in real life, and they're disappointed because they wanted to be insulted. It's like the same thing, like a girl's gonna go on a date with you, and she's gonna want the fart experience, that's what she was led to believe.

My t app profile will say, didn't fart on date, very disappointed.

I think that's a very replace that.

We're trying to remake dating in our image.

Alright. Cool. That was the handsome hour. We got handsome. Thanks for tuning in.

Thank you, guys. Bye. Thank you.